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Conventional Medicine on the Run as Pfizer's Financial Fortunes Decline

How far "the mighty" have fallen since Pfizer, America's kingpin among the mega-drugmakers, spent a cool $90 billion to buy Warner-Lambert seven years ago.

Late last year, the New York company did the unthinkable, trimming its once-untouchable sales force by 20 percent and announced the closure of manufacturing facilities in America and overseas as well as 7,800 more job cuts yesterday.

The newer cuts, in addition to the older ones, represent some 10 percent of Pfizer's workforce, a real victory for the health of patients around the world who are seeking safer solutions for their conditions in increasing numbers.

With competition from generic drugs coming faster and stronger, however, it's anyone's guess if Pfizer will pocket those extra dollars or merely use them to buy more influence at your doctor's office or pay for more biased studies. Remember, conventional medicine can only harm your health, if you let it happen. Do your homework, don't fall for the hype and take better responsibility for your health.

USA Today January 23, 2007

New York Times January 23, 2007 Registration Required





 
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Comment on This Article Community Comments (18)
 
 
Posted On Jan 24, 2007

Pfizer is still going to attempt to come up with a new drug that they can make billions of dollars on.  At least now they can't hid the information like they used to.

mmc88121


 
mmc88121
Moderator User Moderator User, Joined On 11/2006
mmc88121  
 
 
 
Posted On Jan 24, 2007

Wounded and imploding entities can become even more dangerous...look at the old Soviet Union's disintegration, now more dangerous and corrupt as Russia, and it's former client satillite states.

The same holds true for Big Pharma, who is diversifying into bio-tech, GMO, and other DARK or EVIL technologies.

Tobacco diversified into Big Food, and look how bad that has been for the American food chain, in dumb-downed nutrition.

When moral standards, natural law or logic, and ethics fail, without accountability, those in or around it, or dependent on it, are in BIG TROUBLE. 


 
Russ Bianchi
Savvy User Savvy User, Joined On 9/2006
Russ Bianchi  
 
 
 
Posted On Jan 26, 2007
I'm proud to have been a part of their decline for the past 3-1/2 years. I will continue the natural path until the end, theirs or mine.

I don't really care what they come up with in the future, because they have no credibility or trustworthyness. Anything they come up with will ultimately do more harm than good.

Their goal is to make money. My goal is to keep that from happening.

Good riddance to bad medicine.

 
enzo
Savvy User Savvy User, Joined On 11/2006
enzo  
 
 
 
Posted On Jan 29, 2007
As a former Pfizer scientist, I can say with full conviction that the lies being promoted on this forum are some of the most absurd that I have ever been exposed to.  Contrary to Dr. Mercola's headline, conventional medicine is not 'on the run'.  Pfizer did make some business mistakes by acquiring too many companies in a short period of time (Pharmacia/Upjohn, Warner-Lambert, Agouron, Idun, etc) and there have been issues of patent expirations and a single high-profile clinical trial failure, but thankfully, the company isn't going anywhere.  As a Ph.D.-level R&D scientist in the pharmaceutical industry, my career goal is to contribute to the process of developing new drugs which will save lives and improve the quaility of life for ill patients.  This ideology is the same for every phamaceutical company scientist that I have ever worked with.  We are not evil, money-grubbing, dishonest, or any other name that we are called by other readers on this site.  For those of you who are so full of hatred for those of us who are devoting our days and nights to working towards helping you, your parents, your children...please, don't buy or use our products...don't be such hypocrites.  In fact, do yourselves some credit and go to your parents' homes and flush their evil drugs down the toilet.  Go to your neighbors homes and do them the favor of disposing the medications prescribed to their children...I'm sure they'll thank you.  Better yet, light a big bonfire fueled with all of the evil medicines you can find, dance around it and celebrate the loss of jobs of hard-working people at Pfizer with noble intentions and families to support.  I am a member of this site because I believe that there is value in some of what Dr. Mercola has to say but the vilification of the pharmaceutical industry and the lies that are being promoted here as truth has just gone too far.

 
okiewhoop
Novice User Novice User, Joined On 1/2007
okiewhoop  
Replied

Lisa_Price
Novice User Novice User Joined On 1/2007
Lisa_Price  
 
Posted On Jan 29, 2007
Dear Okiewhoop, I'm sure there are decent people with good intentions working in the pharmaceutical industry.  But that doesn't mean that the industry isn't corrupt and misguided.  I'm curious what you think would happen if our country was able to spend an equal amount on health education and preventive medicine as is currently spent on drug development?  While I'm sure there are some medications that save some people's lives, the truth is that most don't--and there is certainly a lot of evidence that the most prescribed ones, such as cholesterol meds, actually cause disease, rather than curing.


enzo
Savvy User Savvy User Joined On 11/2006
enzo  
 
Posted On Jan 31, 2007
I certainly don't agree with "Okiewhoop". He stepped up to defend the company that paid him, and probably prospered quite well during his tenure. That is understandable since he probably is repressing a certain amount of guilt, and defending Pfizer may help him to convince himself  that he spent his career doing good, as opposed to abetting an evil corporation. That can't be a good feeling. We all want to believe we are good people. Maybe he harbors some doubt about his former employer…After all, he is (was) a member of this site.

BUT……,

I also don't agree with the site administrator deactivating his account and having him removed because of his comment above. We should not fear opposing viewpoints, especially those defending the scoundrels guiding Pfizer. If we are unwilling to go toe-to-toe in argumentative debate with one of their former employees, then we are certainly no match for their upper level legal people.

There are many comment writers on this site I don't agree with (who in turn may not agree with me), but if we can't stand up to a challenge of thought every now and again, then we may not  be showing much courage of  conviction in our own beliefs as we should.

I would have liked an opportunity to respond to "Okiewhoop", but since his account has been deactivated and he is unable to read my sub-comment and respond to it, it is now pointless to so do.

We all need to lighten up…give the old anal pore a rest from unnecessary  retentiveness. If one doesn't like a member's comment, simply give it the thumbs down vote, and write a sub-comment in contradiction.

Don't squelch the opposition…make an attempt to enlighten them.


bjeffy
Users with negative points NoviceUser Joined On 1/2007
bjeffy  
 
Posted On Feb 01, 2007
I'm back (Is Okiewhoop by a different name just as controversial?) for the moment...until I get deactivated again.  Enzo, I greatly appreciate your supporting my right to post opposing viewpoints...thank you.  I do not make personal attacks or insult those who believe differently from me and do not believe that my account should have been deactivated.  Other members of this site should certainly be wary of an administrator who seeks to censor out contrary views.

As for your other points, I couldn't disagree more (especially with your armchair psycholanalysis of my support for the pharmaceutical industry).   I have no guilt (repressed or otherwise) for working as a toxicologist within the pharmaceutical industry.  In fact, I could not be more proud of the work that I do and have no doubts that my career choice is helping to improve the safety of the medicines that my family, friends, and strangers benefit from on a daily basis.  While a small segment of the population agrees with your viewpoint, the vast majority of people that I meet are fascinated by the work that I do and often open up to me with very personal stories about how medicines have saved the life of someone close to them.

Like it or not, because of conventional medicine, the average American will not only live into their 80s, but will be able to enjoy their retirement as well.  As to LMP's point about spending more money on prevention, I couldn't agree more.  However, it is not possible to lecture a 6-year old with leukemia due to a bcr-abl chromosomal translocation that they should have lived a different lifestyle (this also is not related in any way to the lifestyle of their parents).  Thanks to medicines like Gleevec, pediatric leukemia is now extremely treatable.  Common logic will tell you that there is a need for both prevention and treatment of disease.


enzo
Savvy User Savvy User Joined On 11/2006
enzo  
 
Posted On Feb 01, 2007
tifenebbjeffy/okiewhop, or whomever:

I'm glad you are OK with your choices in life. I wouldn't want you to feel poorly of yourself. We do what we do, and that is life's way. We play the cards we are dealt, we hold, raise, or we fold them.

Speaking for myself, and my personal experiences I state the following truth.

Eating what I was assured to be good food…a regular mainstream American diet…coupled with the trusted use of many Doctor recommended toxic substances (produced for profit by pharmaceutical purveyors).  It was slowly killing me, and making my life needlessly  painful. I suffered a worsening arthritic condition in every joint in my body. I was on Celebrex™ 200mg twice daily, took a daily aspirin (having been told by mainstream MD's that it prevented heart attacks), and daily doses of ibuprofin (or tylenol, alleve, etc.). My condition was deteriorating, and the pain was uncontrollable.

Out of frustration that the pain was not being eased, coupled with a growing concern that these toxins were damaging my liver, I quit all prescription and OTC medication completely. I quit all refined sugar and refined carbohydrate processed foods. I went on a whole food, organic, grass fed meat, wild cold water fish, diverse vegetable and fruit diet. I doubled my intake of an already heavily supplemented regimen of vitamins, minerals, herbal remedies and food supplements.

Within two weeks (the time it took to purge the toxins) I began to experience a profound change taking place in my body. The inflammation in my joints was subsiding, as was the joint pain. As the weeks and months passed, I began to get healthier by the day.

It has been about three years (I will reach age sixty this year), and I am completely pain free with no evidence of arthritis anywhere in my body. I can do things now that I couldn't do at age fifty. I am strong, flexible and fit. I sleep comfortably and soundly through the night---every night, and wake up refreshed. Another unexpected benefit is the fact I have not experienced a headache since.

Is all this in my imagination? Is it all purely coincidental? I don't think so. I think mainstream medicine is dead wrong in almost every way. They are business people with bottom lines to look after. For the most part they are just doing what they have been taught with no eye for change. As individuals they are not evil…they are ignorant, and arrogant. They just need a strong dose of reality.

I know I am now doing right by myself, and that the doctors caused me injury through lack of real knowledge. I think the more you open your mind to another stream of thought you will see things differently.

Should I ever develop a cancer, I will follow a natural path to recovery. If I die, so be it. I just know I will not be the victim of chemo or radiation poisoning. Those dying children you made reference to probably would have faired much better had they been taken down the natural cures path.


bjeffy
Users with negative points NoviceUser Joined On 1/2007
bjeffy  
 
Posted On Feb 02, 2007
What disturbs me the most here are these types of comments:
1.  "Pfizer is still going to attempt to come up with a new drug that they can make billions of dollars on" -mmc88121
2.  "Their goal is to make money. My goal is to keep that from happening" -Enzo
3.  "They are business people with bottom lines to look after" -Enzo

Which one of you is Lenin and which is Marx?  I'm originally from Oklahoma so perhaps my view of capitolism and free enterprise is a bit skewed, but I was taught that in America, companies are in business to make a profit.  In addition to paying its shareholders, Pfizer spent more than 7 billion dollars on research last year and gave huge donations of money and medicine to needy people in the US and around the world.  Do you all also despise the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation because Microsoft is profitable?  Rest assured that the nutriceutical and supplement companies need to meet their bottom lines as well.  Do you really believe that the company selling krill oil is losing money or just breaking even?  

Even more disturbing is the prejudice against industry scientists.  As Enzo said " …they are ignorant, and arrogant. They just need a strong dose of reality".  How many of you personally know a research scientist?  Have you sat down with any of us and talked to us about why we chose this career path?  Enzo, I notice that you are a former cop.  Based on what I have seen on TV, I would say that your statement regarding arrogance and ignorance applies much more to cops than to scientists...however, I know enough to recognize that what I see on TV isn't entirely true and that most likely, the vast majority of cops are good people who really want to protect people from criminals.  Don't be so quick to stereotype those of us who devote our time to making safer medications and easing the suffering of sick people.


enzo
Savvy User Savvy User Joined On 11/2006
enzo  
 
Posted On Feb 02, 2007
bjeffy, okiewhoop, whoever you are,

I am neither Lenin, nor Marx. And I am certainly not an Okie. I am a Buckeye.

I defended your right to rant and rave, but you really are now starting to play  like an old scratched 78 rpm record. If you are not comfortable in your own skin, that is a shame, but don't try to convince me you have done well by the world. And don't misinterpret my comments to suit yourself. When I said "My goal is to keep Pfizer from making money" I was merely making reference to my personal stance to NEVER ever personally buy their deadly concoctions. That is to say, they will not make money at my expense! It is no different than Frito-Lay, or McDonalds, or any other toxic enterprise that I refuse to patronize who will go out of business if they rely on my support. You are an idiot if you think everybody should buy into Pfizer's marketing scheme, and become part of their profit machine. How many lives have they saved? How many lives have they ended? And do they really give a rat's ass one way or the other?

And what  about your view of 'capitolism'? …(By the way it is 'capitalism', dummy…Are you really a PhD?) You say you were taught that in America companies are in business to make a profit. Well, Duh! So too are illegal drug dealers, bank robbers,  and snake oil salesmen in business to make a profit…that doesn't make it right! A product offered for sale must be safe and good, not just offered for sale to the public to gain favor with company shareholders.

Before you unload on the "nutriceutical and supplement" industry, be advised that nothing they deal in is US patent protected. They partake in a fair and open market, which  is definitely not abeted in any way by the mainstream medical pimps. The supplement industry has had to walk on glass when it comes to making claims of curative power and healing benefits. Conversely, your killer industry can say and do anything they want. They not only can get away with murder, they have the FDA and the AMA (and the corrupt political pimps) in their back pockets to protect their interests. The pharmaceutical industry and mainstream medicine has harmed me personally--the natural remedy industry has helped me regain my health and happiness. Good intentions, or not, your industry has hurt me…natural remedies have helped me. So, am I wrong to speak up here?

You sing the praises of big pharma's generosity, and you lionized Bill and Melinda Gates. Well, I am neither impressed with the generosity of Pfizer, nor that of Bill Gates to throw back pennies on the dollars that they have squeezed from the American consumer, almost by force (Melinda by the way has done nothing to warrant her fame other than marry Bill---she is merely a hanger-on). Just how generous have they been? I mean, come on, one can only do so much with an excess of billions of dollars. As such, I have not been impressed by their "benefaction" of chump change being  tossed to the little people in an effort to assuage their personal guilt for possessing an immoral amount of personal wealth. And have you noticed how those donations do not flow free of political influence and clout. So then, are they giving, or are they just buying?

Contrary to your assumption, I  do know many research scientists. I live just a few blocks from The Ohio State University and  Battelle Memorial Institute and I know many research scientists personally---many are my neighbors. Not one of them is the altruistic individual that you try to paint yourself as being among. They are simply highly trained chemists, physicists and scientifically oriented individuals who are applying their training and education with the hopes of scoring a patent with their name attached. I do not begrudge them in any way. They have bills to pay, as do we all, so don't  try to convince me your ego has never been motivated by personal wealth and professional success within the scope of your professional scientific pursuits while employed by Pfizer.

The arrogance and ignorance that I had alluded to is typical of educated elitists, and you took personal exception to that. Did I strike a chord here? You know in your heart there is much pomposity among the MD's and PhD's among the elite inteligencia . And among them you can include the MBA's, JD's, whatever. The higher the level of achievement, the bigger one's ego is inflated. If you have never observed that phenomenon, then you never will never recognize it as a human frailty, a personal shortcoming to be overcome, not an asset to be flaunted with false bravado.

You made reference to my being a former cop. Then you assigned arrogance and ignorance to police officers based on your TV knowledge of cops. Let me give you a little advice here. Don't form your opinions of people or their careers based on what you glean from Television. TV people are so far removed from reality it isn't funny. I mean, really, if I were to trust TV people with my realizations in life, then you scientists would be perceived in the same light as the Sesame Street characters  "Professor and his assistant, Beaker."

I never once doubted your intention to do good in the world by developing safer drugs to help humanity. But if you truly believe your CEO and Board of Directors at Pfizer were all cut from the same bolt of altruistic cloth that you were, then you are sadly naive. Similarly,  the lowly street cop may wish to do good within his /her community, however, police departments are led by politicians with agendas that don't coincide with public welfare. Thus, what is best for a community may not be the end result. Society's doers are not the problem. Our  problems are caused by society's users.

All I ask is that you open your mind to truth, and question the motives of every profiteer. If they be legitimate, they will stand on their rightful merits. If they be charlatans they should be castigated and reviled. Truth sometimes is stereotypical, and not all stereotypes are bad.  If you take something personal, ask yourself why that is so. Don't automatically go into defensive mode and strike out at others. Discuss the issues with an open mind. There are many opinions I hold, many  of which I hope one day to be proven wrong. Striving to possess universal truth is the ultimate goal of human existence . Of course that is unachievable, but it should nonetheless remain our goal.   


bjeffy
Users with negative points NoviceUser Joined On 1/2007
bjeffy  
 
Posted On Feb 03, 2007

Your perceived arrogance of scientists obviously comes from the fact that we actually do know what we are talking about and we base our decisions on facts, not what we read in the popular press. As far as you judging me for not winning the 8th grade spelling bee, feel free to criticize my scientific work rather than my ability to spell…look up ‘jeffy’ at www.pubmed.gov, read a few of my papers and give me your opinion…I’m sure it will enlighten me.

Of course there are people with huge egos in any profession and at every level of education. I have met pompous academics and scientists, arrogant cops, and self-important convenience store managers. However, you seem to suggest that all people who are highly educated have inflated egos. Perhaps you question your own level of education? Again, I just don’t believe that you really know any of these people on a personal level that you criticize. You mention that you ‘know’ people who work at OSU and some research institute…well bully for you. What types of discussions have you had with them? If you had ever taken the time to speak with them, you would have learned that they are not after patents…this is a fundamental difference between academia and the pharmaceutical industry. Academics publish and publicly post the results of their publicly funded research in order to achieve tenure and additional funding. Patents are a corollary objective to anyone in academia. You also demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding of the purpose of patents by pointing out that the supplement and nutriceutical industry doesn’t patent their products. Of course they don’t…this would require that they actually research something and develop something useful and novel. Any idiot can put wheatgrass in capsule form, make unsubstantiated claims that it is good for you, and sell it to you at a high price. If you really believe that the CEOs of these companies are any more noble than those at Pfizer, I really feel sorry for you. I could continue to explain away your other illogical statements, but what would the purpose be? You are interested in vilifying the pharmaceutical industry and biological scientists at any costs. There is nothing that I could say that would convince you otherwise. In conclusion, I certainly respect your right to live your life as you see fit, I just hope you don’t push your views onto others. By the way, pops, what’s a 78 rpm record?



bjeffy
Users with negative points NoviceUser Joined On 1/2007
bjeffy  
 
Posted On Feb 03, 2007

Well, Enzo, if your frame of reference is a 78 rpm record, I’d say you’ve got about 50 years of catching up to do…I’m beginning to comprehend your lack of understanding of modern science. As for your pejorative comments, I’d say they make you look like you are on the defensive and more like a cornered, wounded animal facing a hunter with a shotgun than a confident factotum. As for your ‘dummy’ comment and questioning my educational credentials, I must say I expected a little bit more from a sesquipedalian intellectual like yourself.

Your first problem (the same problem of all the other members of this site who rip the pharmaceutical industry and modern medicine) is judgment based in ignorance. You cite your personal example as a universal truth that can be extrapolated to the population as a whole. You know absolutely nothing of population genetics, cytochrome p450 polymorphisms, idiosyncratic hepatotoxicity, flavin monooxygenases, xenobiotic biotransformation, single nucleotide polymorphisms or anything else related to pharmacology and toxicology yet because you had some psychosomatic response to throwing out your medication you perceive some cause-effect relationship that can be applied to everyone. My grandfather smoked his whole life and lived to be 87 years old and never developed lung cancer. Your logic based on personal experience would suggest that smoking must be good for everyone. You and all of the other ‘experts’ on this site sit down with your grandchildren, read an article on the benefits of phyotestrogens in the sophisticated USA Today and then run out and buy a bottle of good ol’ natural genistein to reap the rewards of natural cures. What do you really know about phytoestrogens? Do you know about their binding affinity for the estrogen receptor? Do you know if they are agonists or antagonists of the ER-alpha or –beta isoform? Does phytoestrogen binding to the ER recruit transcriptional co-activators or co-repressors?


bjeffy
Users with negative points NoviceUser Joined On 1/2007
bjeffy  
 
Posted On Feb 03, 2007

Well, Enzo, if your frame of reference is a 78 rpm record, I’d say you’ve got about 50 years of catching up to do…I’m beginning to comprehend your lack of understanding of modern science. As for your pejorative comments, I’d say they make you look like you are on the defensive and more like a cornered, wounded animal facing a hunter with a shotgun than a confident factotum. As for your ‘dummy’ comment and questioning my educational credentials, I must say I expected a little bit more from a sesquipedalian intellectual like yourself.

Your first problem (the same problem of all the other members of this site who rip the pharmaceutical industry and modern medicine) is judgment based in ignorance. You cite your personal example as a universal truth that can be extrapolated to the population as a whole. You know absolutely nothing of population genetics, cytochrome p450 polymorphisms, idiosyncratic hepatotoxicity, flavin monooxygenases, xenobiotic biotransformation, single nucleotide polymorphisms or anything else related to pharmacology and toxicology yet because you had some psychosomatic response to throwing out your medication you perceive some cause-effect relationship that can be applied to everyone. My grandfather smoked his whole life and lived to be 87 years old and never developed lung cancer. Your logic based on personal experience would suggest that smoking must be good for everyone. You and all of the other ‘experts’ on this site sit down with your grandchildren, read an article on the benefits of phyotestrogens in the sophisticated USA Today and then run out and buy a bottle of good ol’ natural genistein to reap the rewards of natural cures. What do you really know about phytoestrogens? Do you know about their binding affinity for the estrogen receptor? Do you know if they are agonists or antagonists of the ER-alpha or –beta isoform? Does phytoestrogen binding to the ER recruit transcriptional co-activators or co-repressors?


enzo
Savvy User Savvy User Joined On 11/2006
enzo  
 
Posted On Feb 03, 2007
okiewhoop/bjeffy

You pompous, sniveling, bloviating twerp. Get over yourself. I am not against educated people. I have a BS and MA degree, but so what! That is not where I got my complete education. Life teaches new lessons every day, and I try to take advantage of that every day.

It appears your brain  has become so mottled with textbook hyper-complex chemical equations that you are incapable of common sense thought.  Stay in the lab, "Beaker" because that is your happy place.

Your smoking grandfather died young at 87. No doubt your bad medicines deep-six'd the old gent. But, I'll bet he grew up on real cow's milk and nutritious whole food, which strengthened his immune system to stave off lung cancer until his untimely demise. I'm curious to know what other cancer killed him though, or was it perhaps a heart attack or stroke?

Herbs cannot be patented because they are natures free growing products. They are available to all persons free of patent royalties. Your chemical toxins are created in the lab, totally unnatural, and not safely  ingestible by human beings. They interfere  with cellular structure and they generally kill their victim/patient.

I understand you are committed to your profession, and you intend to continue playing with your big chemistry set at Pfizer. After all, your mom and dad spent a lot of their hard earned money to put you through school.

Go back to Pfizer, like a good employee, and report your findings on this web site. For your sake, I hope they don't kill the messenger.


bjeffy
Users with negative points NoviceUser Joined On 1/2007
bjeffy  
 
Posted On Feb 05, 2007

Why do you have such difficulty in grasping the idea that there are harmful and beneficial compounds that exist in nature as well as in the pharmacy? Let’s return to my example of Taxol: Somebody invested huge amounts of time and money to study this natural compound, learn that it is a beneficial chemotherapeutic agent due to its ability to inhibit microtubule polymerization, and to learn to synthesize it in the lab. Would you rather people hack down the rare Pacific Yew and chew it up to treat their cancer? What happens when the plant no longer exists? What is so evil about attempting to recover the R&D costs that went into synthesizing this natural compound (and eliminating the need to destroy forests)?

My biggest problem with you, however, is this: You have no first-hand knowledge of anything that you have stated in this discussion. You do not understand the pharmacology or toxicology of either natural products or pharmaceuticals. You have never worked in the pharmaceutical industry. I, on the other hand, am recognized as an expert in this area by both scientists and the popular press. Somewhere, in your twisted logic, you have the idea that you can teach me about my area of expertise…and then you have the audacity to call ME arrogant and bloviated. You claim that you come to this site to learn, that you are looking to acquire new knowledge every day? All I see is that you come here to mock that which you don’t understand. You spout off ignorant propaganda without researching it yourself…you read it on a website or in the newspaper and take it as true and then proclaim yourself an expert...ready to enlighten those of us who know more than you. You have looked out the window of the airplane and seen that the world is flat…you then join up with a group of other flat-earthers and congratulate yourselves on your wisdom and mock the geophysicists who say that the earth is round. Again, you think that I am the arrogant one here? 



bjeffy
Users with negative points NoviceUser Joined On 1/2007
bjeffy  
 
Posted On Feb 05, 2007
I was prepared to be finished with this discussion but I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to get in one more response...I haven't had this much fun since attending Pfizer's party to celebrate the FDA approval of Sutent! Besides, I just don't have it in my heart to let such arrogance and ignorance go unanswered.
Enzo, the most ridiculous statements you have made yet are the ones suggesting that drugs made by the pharmaceutical companies are unnatural, not ingestible, and kill people. Are you for real? Are there really people out there that are so ignorant that they believe this? Are you not aware that naturally occuring toxins are far more dangerous than any medicine ever manufactured? Why don't we make a little list of good ol' natural products...THC (marijuana), cocaine (coca leaf), opium (poppy), LSD (ergot), psyilocybin (mushroom), nicotine, curare, palytoxin...get my point? What about alpha-amanitin (from amanita muscaria mushroom)? This natural toxin has an LD50 of 0.1mg/kg body weight...can you name me a man-made compound that can kill at this dose? Pharmaceuticals kill because they come from a lab? What about Taxol (from Pacific Yew tree)? Vinca alkaloids such as vincristine and vinblastine (from perriwinkle)? Hell, even simvastatin (Zocor/Vytorin) is derived from a natural aspergillis fungus! Every comment you make is steeped in ignorance. Do a web search and look up the chemical structure of epigallocatechin gallate (beneficial polyphenol in green tea) and then look up the structure of celecoxib (Celebrex)...do you have the ability to determine which one is natural and which is man made? Of course you don't...neither do I, neither does Joe Mercola, and neither does a natural product chemist. It isn't possible!


bjeffy
Users with negative points NoviceUser Joined On 1/2007
bjeffy  
 
Posted On Feb 05, 2007
Sorry to say that this will be my last posting on this topic...while I hate to deprive you of my razor-sharp wit and charming personality, I think I've made my point.  If not, you have a lot more to learn than you will ever be able to acquire through a web-based discussion forum.  I'm sure there are many people here who recognize that the best bet for a healthy and full life comes from the combination of prevention, good lifestyle, and modern medicine.  For those of you who are set on disparaging conventional medicine and the pharmaceutical industry, you certainly have that right.  I only ask that you make arguments based on fact, not propaganda and emotion.  Do your own research and draw your own conclusions...if you truly have a desire to understand, the information is out there.  Study both sides of any issue in an objective manner and then make an informed decision.  Unfortunately, I rarely see this approach taken by the people on this site...que lastima.


enzo
Savvy User Savvy User Joined On 11/2006
enzo  
 
Posted On Feb 05, 2007
dnbjeffy,

Your ego is enormous, yet boundless! I can almost hear you sniffling into your nasal passages before each  arrogant remark as you write.

Listen to your own self-aggrandizement, young man:

"I, on the other hand, am recognized as an expert in this area by both scientists and the popular press. Somewhere, in your twisted logic, you have the idea that you can teach me about my area of expertise…and then you have the audacity to call ME arrogant and bloviated."

OK, Mr "Expert" scientist, how professional do you think you sound in your own words? I am not trying to teach you about your own area of expertise. I don't care a lab-rat's ass about your area of expertise. I am quite aware of the damaging potential of those within your area of expertise . What kind of honest and clean research are you even capable of producing? You are a buffoon to expect ME to trust YOU with my own personal health and well being!  No thanks, "Beaker", I'll pass on your area of expertise, because…(Hello?…Anybody in there, McFly?)… IT DOESN'T WORK, DIM WIT!

You are a perfect example of the sorry nature of the people running your sick, twisted industry. Though you may be "gifted" in one particular school of thought, and you may have excelled  academically in the past, you are in fact, an abysmal failure in "Real Life - 101" --- You are a social illiterate, monastic in your thinking, and you are incapable of accepting any theorum contrary to that which you have set out to disclaim from it's onset. Why can't you accept the fact that everyone may not agree with you? Is it even be possible for you to imagine you might be wrong?

You presumptively equivocate  that I have no first hand knowledge of anything I have stated in my discussion… that I do not understand the pharmacology or toxicology of either natural products or pharmaceuticals. Just who the hell do you think you are?…You just graduated in 2003, you miserable little brat!

I know more about natural products through personal experience and personal health successes than you do about pharmaceutical successes through personal experience, and I bet money you have never personally subjected yourself to your own medicines. On a 'promising' scientific hunch you are quick inject caged lab rats, and naive willing human beings  into a risky "Hey! Lets-try -this!" trial-and-error experimentation, but you will never offer yourself up as  the guinea pig---No self-doubt regarding your "expertise" now is there is there Brandon?

Why can't you get it through your thick egg-shell skull that some of us are wise to your ilk? We will continue to be yin to your yang, so get used to it. We are more convinced and dedicated to our cause than you are to yours. We are motivated by healthy living, you are motivated by money and recognition. Many of us have experienced money, and though it is nicer than poverty, it doesn't come close to replacing good health. You, sir, stand in our way, and that is unacceptable.

Self defense is a righteous motivator. Threaten my well-being with your toxicologic concoctions, and I promise you will regret your imposition on my right to natural choices.

Am I against another's right to choose your crap over natural remedies? Absolutely not! Anyone knowingly aware of one's treatment options should be able to select---right or wrong. Whatever one chooses is fine with me, so long as the choice is free of coercion. Should they survive, great…Should they die by errant choice, it is over anyway, and the point is no longer moot…"Buh-bye!"

But, Pfizer toadie,  don't deny me the right to my chosen side in this great unknown. As you enjoy your PAC-secured right to advertise your technically-legal poisons in the mass media, so too will I advertise through my humble outlets to reject your way, and to defend my right to pursue natural cures to life's maladies.


 
 
 
 
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